Ok, I'm going to stir it up now but here it goes. A little background. I was a boat builder, sailmaker, and professional rigger of sailboats including ocean racing yachts. I understand the strength of materials and how those strengths are deminished by angle of force, knots, swedgings, condition etc. I was also taught rock climbing by a guy who was rated sixth in the world at the time. I see lots of discussion about hardwear but I feel strongly that the rope that is used and how it is used poses a much greater risk of serious injury than does the hardwear I see being used. While working as a DM I have observed the use of severely compromised rope in full suspension by big names in the local scene. Granted if there is enough redundancy in a harness you can get away with a lot. I have also onserved these harnesses being suported by single point light line with no redundancy and then the subject hoisted 15 feet into the air on a slow chain hoist well out of reach of any help if one of these single points failed.
In rock climbing, if there is any sign of wear on the rope it is taken out of use for climbing. This wear is normally caused by abrasion in rock climbing. The lay, or tightness of the brade have a lot to do with the strength of the rope. Nylon rope that has been repeatedly washed and is now nice and fluffy is only a fraction of its original strength. Natural rope that has been softened by running it over a hard edge is much weaker than its design specs. There is no way of calculating the strength of these soften materials. Using any compromised or light line with less than a three fold redundancy (knotted on each end) is asking for trouble. When I began rock climbing we didn't have any fancy web harnesses. We would take 1/4' manilla rope and tye it around our waist with a square knot and repeat until we had at least four bands giving is a redundancy of four. Ok, lets hear some opinions.
In rock climbing, if there is any sign of wear on the rope it is taken out of use for climbing. This wear is normally caused by abrasion in rock climbing. The lay, or tightness of the brade have a lot to do with the strength of the rope. Nylon rope that has been repeatedly washed and is now nice and fluffy is only a fraction of its original strength. Natural rope that has been softened by running it over a hard edge is much weaker than its design specs. There is no way of calculating the strength of these soften materials. Using any compromised or light line with less than a three fold redundancy (knotted on each end) is asking for trouble. When I began rock climbing we didn't have any fancy web harnesses. We would take 1/4' manilla rope and tye it around our waist with a square knot and repeat until we had at least four bands giving is a redundancy of four. Ok, lets hear some opinions.
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Re: Unsafe Rope
Sun, January 6, 2008 - 11:45 AMI never use less than 4 bands of 6mm (1/4") processes hemp rope to support a 100-200lb person, and I've never seen a "big name" use less than that either, although your definition of big might be different than mine. If anyone is using less than that to support a single load, I'd venture to guess that they are doing a lot of other dangerous things as well.
As part of my ropemaking process, I put more than 120lbs of force on each rope, after all the destructive processes (boiling, singing.)
As a test, I've suspended my self (~240lbs) from a single rope, and bounced, and it did not break.
I 've even held my own weight from a single strand of the 3-strand rope I used. It held, until I started bouncing, at which point it snapped.
From what I have experienced, seen, and heard about, the most common failures in rope suspensions are (in order:)
1. Bad rig, bands slip off, or knot does not hold. These failures are scary, but usually don't lead to that serious of an injury, as the sub tends to slide down rather than free-fall.
2. Bad mount point/collapsing frame. A failure in the actual suspending mechanism.
I've seen both of these types of things happen, and verified other instances. I've *never* seen nor hear about rope failing nor intermediate hardware failing, although I wouldn't doubt that it has happened to somebody.
I constantly inspect my rope, after scenes, and while I tie. I've never had to throw out a piece of rope from normal wear and tear, but I check anyways.
The chain hoist is another issue entirely, I've seen some rather stupid shit happen with a chain hoist (using rope, cuffs, wooden beams, and other weird materials,) by people that I would NOT consider experienced riggers at all. The important point about a suspension isn't the lifting, it the staying lifted, and I feel that chain hoists promote some awfully risky behavior.
So yes, clueless people shouldn't be using washed cheap nylon/poly or processed hemp rope. But, people who have been properly trained and retain that knowledge can use reasonable materials to do a reasonably safe suspension. If someone is so dumb that they would do a suspension without the proper training for the materials they choose to use, no "super-rope" is going to save their sub's neck. -
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Re: Unsafe Rope
Sun, January 6, 2008 - 1:36 PMI just had a discussion about this yesterday with Max during a break in the class he did with Mark Yu. The discussion went as follows:
The weakest link in your suspension "chain" is the bottom. If you're using climbing/rescue gear for all your hardware and have a solid fixed point you shouldn't have to worry about those as long as everything has been inspected prior to use,and discarded if necessarry. For suspensions in the range 2-5 feet off the ground he uses no less than 8 (4 doubled) pieces of 8mm finished hemp. If it's an instance of extreme height or a dangerous situation he'll switch to the rated climbing rope.
I'm not trying to argue, nor speak for Max, but 6mm rope just seems small for suspension. At least in that quantity. It might do the job, but it just seems undersized to me. I think that aesthetically using the smaller rope doesn't have as much impact either. I generally use 8-12 pieces of 8mm because I like to the look of more rope and want to overdue the engineering.
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Re: Unsafe Rope
Sun, January 6, 2008 - 4:14 PMThe environment of climbing is very different from that of rope bondage, and the failure modes are different. Trying to fix one can make the other ones worse.
In climbing you're always trying to minimize the weight of the equipment, which means that you're operating as close to the performance edge of the rope as you can get away with. This means that even the slightest damage can push you over the edge; there's no room for error with only a single rope holding you up.
In suspension I've never seen anyone suspended by a single strand of rope. I'd be surprised if you have, as you described it.
For harnesses I find slightly frayed nylon to be safer because it's less likely to slip or slide and distributes pressure better on the bottom's body. The greater danger for harnesses is the submissive sliding out or shifting into a hazardous position (choking, etc.), not the rope breaking. The rope may look fuzzy, but, try as I might, I've been unable to break it. The forces it experiences are inherently minor -- the submissive would be very unhappy if they weren't, and the suspension wouldn't even get off the ground. When using these, I make sure that there are no single or even double points of failure.
I never use fuzzy ropes for the main lifting elements. More important, I use several independent lifting elements unless I'm setting up a pulley system where that's not possible; in that case I'd use a 7/16" rope at least doubled or tripled up. That feels more secure than the (load-rated!) pulleys with 1/8" rope that Mr. S sells.
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Re: Unsafe Rope
Sun, January 6, 2008 - 8:54 PMFirst of all, for conformity of the discussion a rope or line for us nautical types (there are only four ropes on a ship everything else is a line) is made up of many strands either laid or braided. When I talk of single element in suspension I'm not talking about one rope for the entire weight of the suspension. But I have seen a single rope loop on a chest harness used in conjunction with a three or four point rope on rope purchase system. So what if the anckles are tied up with multiple ropes or not. That would just mean that the submissives ankles would be in the air with their face planted into the floor, mats or no mats.
Lets take an example of the submissive lying outstretched face down with one line from the upper back and one from the mid back and one coming from each side of the hips. That makes four ropes if they are tied off at the ring and don't pass through from one side to the other in which case there are only two suspension ropes. I don't want to even mention the rope from the hair to the suspension ring, if the upper shoulder rope had failed than the neck would have been loaded, but I digress. If any one of the four main suspension ropes fails than the load will shift dramatically shockloading the remaining three single suspension ropes. This is the classic scenario for catistophic failure. I am saying that safety is in the redundancy in each of the four suspension ropes. So instead of one rope from each of the four points it is doubled or tripled (knotted at each end). The futher out of reach that the subject is the more important that this redundancy becomes.
I am not bringing this up to tweak anyones ego but to mearly promote a healthy discussion to achieve and maintain the highest level of safety possible. -
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Re: Unsafe Rope
Sun, January 6, 2008 - 11:15 PMTo expand on Waldemars point about the vertical lines being different from the harness wraps, when I think about suspension I classify ropes into 3 roles:
(1) Rope attaching the first (and perhaps only) piece of hardware, ('biner, ring, swivel etc), to the suspension point (beam, girder, suspension frame etc).
(2) Vertical lines, attaching rope tied around some part of the bottoms body to a piece of overhead hardware.
(3) Rope actually tied around some part of the bottoms body.
Role (1) may not exist, say if you attach a ring directly to the hook on a chain hoist. One concern here is abrasion of the rope by rough edges on a beam or girder.
Role (3) tends to be non-critical stengthwise since in order to adequately distribute the forces on the bottoms body you end up with a number of wraps, with thinner rope needing more wraps, and consequently the force on each part of the rope is very low compared to the breaking strength of the rope. One concern here is of the rope slipping over the bottoms body.
Role (2) is the interesting case. For a reason I will explain in a moment, vertical lines often appear as a bundle of 4 - a doubled line which goes over the suspension hardware and back along itself. For a simple* suspension I like to subdivide role (2) into 3 subcases:
(2)a The primary suspension lines - this is a bundle that often (but not always) goes to a chest or arm harness. If this fails bad things happen. On the other handle if this bundle holds, it will keep the bottoms head, neck and spine off the deck.
(2)b Secondary suspension lines - these are bundles that goes to other places on the bottoms body, and carry a fair amount of weight. If they fail, the bottom will at very least get a nasty jolt and possibly feet will hit the deck causing injury.
(2)c Tertiary suspension lines - these typically hold an arm or lower leg in a given position, but carry very little weight and will have little consequence if they fail.
Now the technique that I think Bill is alluding to, is what I have heard called the "rope winch". Basically you fold a rope in two, pass the bight over your ring, around the harness on the bottoms body and tie it off, perhaps with a half hitch or two. You then take your tails and bring them down through the original bight. Thus it appears you have a bundle of 4 lines joining the ring to the harness and furthermore when you pull up on your tails you have a factor of two (minus friction) mechanical advantage. A variation is where you tie a cuff around a limb using a folded piece of rope, pass the tails around the hardware and back through the bight.
The problem here (and I think this is what Bill is worrying about) is the bight. This is clearly a weak point and if it fails the whole bundle fails. How weak? Well at one of the Shibaricons (2006 maybe?), Taipan mentioned in his suspension class that he handle conducted some experiments and on hemp rope this bight failed at around 20% of the breaking strength of the rope. I was shocked by this and checked with him after the class to be sure I had understood it right.
Now I don't think the rope winch is necessarily a bad technique - in fact I use it all the time. But only on tertiary lines or on secondary lines with with very strong rope. If I need mechanical advantage on a secondary line I more often use a rated rap ring to reduce the friction loss and the wear and tear on my rope.
*More complex suspensions can't necessarily be analyzed like this. In particular I have seen Midori do a trick where she hacks through what was her primary lines with a knife, transferring the load in a dynamic way to secondary lines, that now become primary. -
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Re: Unsafe Rope
Mon, January 7, 2008 - 8:16 PM"The problem here (and I think this is what Bill is worrying about) is the bight. This is clearly a weak point and if it fails the whole bundle fails. "
I would never leave that bight as is. Once the suporting line is in it's place I go back over the support point and back into the chest harness adding at least 4 more ropes to the main vertical supporting line. Any primary supporting line should be the strongest and have the most redundancy possible.
I agree with Stephen that there are differences in the roles each support line plays and they should be planned accordingly.
Obviously a line just holding an ankle up is not going to need as much redundancy as the chest harness taking the main body weight, but I have still never seen anyone I know use "one" line for it nor "one" line for the upper body harness either.
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Re: Unsafe Rope
Tue, January 8, 2008 - 2:25 AMI agree with your assessment, Steven. I personally don't use the single-bight rope winch technique you described for the main lift precisely because of its single point of failure, which by the way is also where the ropes are rubbing hard. Also, I'd find it hard to overcome the friction to get much leverage with this technique on any but the lightest subs. If I need something like this, I'll modify the technique to increase redundancy and decrease the load I have to pull.
This is one of the most common techniques in Japanese rope bondage, but there you usually do it incrementally using multiple ropes, bringing one limb or body point up at a time, so you get plenty of redundancy that way as well as using the finishing that Madame Butterfly described. -
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Re: Unsafe Rope
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 10:58 PMWith regards to the rope winch technique, finishing it off as Madame Butterfly suggests will take some of the load off the weak bight but I don't see that it adds redundancy. If the bight fails, the lines that pass through it are now free and have considerable slack.
The reason I bring it up again is that I recently witnessed a well known suspension top use this exact technique (without the finishing) on a chest harness (the primary support) and then lift his bottom using a hip wrap. Now I felt it was my duty to explain to him at this point that his rig had a potential failure mode, and he listened to me, thought for a few seconds, took his bottom down and re-rigged her in a much safer manner.
Let's look at the physics. Assume for simplicity that the bottoms weight was equally distributed between the chest bundle and the hip bundle, and assume that her weight was 130lbs. The critical bight has 65lbf on it. Now the support lines were 6mm hemp. The only rating I've seen for 6mm hemp was some German DIN standard of 240daN (deka-Newtons) which is about 540lb for untreated rope. So 500lb might be a reasonable guess for the strength of the treated stuff, though I can believe that the DIN rating might be conservative and a given piece of top notch rope could be significantly stronger. However using the 500lb figure, the bight at 20% strength would be in danger of breaking at 100lbf. Thus the while the rope doesn't break, the safety margin is less than 2.
My suspicion is that quite a few riggers are working with far lower safety margins than they know or would feel comfortable with. -
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Re: Unsafe Rope
Wed, January 16, 2008 - 11:48 AMI'll agree that if the bight fails and it's a nylon or poly rope it would slither all apart but hemp, silk and other grippy ropes don't slide apart like that. Those further wraps will hold until you can get there to fix the situation. I have to pull my bundles apart well after any knots have been removed, even under tension.
Knowing your ropes is key. I don't claim to know what a nylon rope will or won't do but I have a good idea of what hemp and silk will and won't do. -
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Re: Unsafe Rope
Wed, January 16, 2008 - 11:57 AMok, that sounded kind of contradictory. My impression is that a nylon or poly rope will slither apart.
I will say that the one time I tried to use the bottom's nylon rope in the support line that's what it did (hi Waldemar).
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Re: Unsafe Rope
Thu, January 17, 2008 - 10:40 PMI'm aware that natural fiber rope has far higher friction than synthetic rope and that this allows the use of a number of techniques popular in the Japanese style that would not be advisable with most synthetics. However in the situation I was talking about I doubt that friction will help if the critical bight fails; here's my analysis:
You suggested going from the critical bight of the rope winch, "back over the support point and back into the chest harness adding at least 4 more ropes to the main vertical supporting line". I'm assuming that your tails are finally anchored back at the chest harness in some fail-proof way. Now what happens if the bight fails depends on which way you go back over the support point.
Case 1: If you go back the way you came over the support point, on failure of the critical bight, the double bight that was interlocked with it (4 of your 8 support lines) will move up and over the support point even with infinite rope on rope friction since the ropes that are in contact are moving the same direction. Thus you have sudden, complete failure.
Case 2: If you go back over the support in the other direction, your lines complete encircle the support point which places a limit on the fall distance, of the original distance from the critical bight to the support point. You also have rope on rope friction because the ropes that (hopefully) cross on you support point are being pulled in opposite directions. However I doubt that this friction will do much to slow the fall since there isn't much besides the ropes own weight pushing them together to generate the friction. OTOH when I did an experiment using my teddy bear as a stunt bottom it did hold. But then my teddy bear is probably lighter than the ropes I used.
So I guess the point I'm trying to make is that reinforcement does not equal redundancy (e.g. removing a single point of failure). You can have both or one without the other, depending on the exact technique used.
After all this theory, it should be remembered that accidents due to a rope breaking are very rare, as several people have pointed out to me (including Taipan when I first quizzed him about the 20% result several years ago). It's my guess that you could rig from dawn to dusk (or should that be from dusk to dawn?) 7 days a week using a safety factor of 2 and have no rope breakage issues. I have read (but as with many things on the 'net one is never quite certain of the validity) that safety factors of 2 and lower _are used_ in safety critical applications such as aerospace were weight is a big concern. -
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Re: Unsafe Rope
Fri, January 18, 2008 - 10:35 AMMy suspensions are all about friction and gravity. I don't knot to the harness or the support point, the lines being pulled down by gravity lock ends in.
I've had a sub in a partial suspension decide to go twirl around and bounce and giggle for close to an hour. In that time she managed to loosen all my wraps on her supporting line and still she was supported. She also had her feet on the ground so I wasn't too worried. If it had come completely loose she would have landed on her butt and probably deserved it.
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Re: Unsafe Rope
Sat, January 19, 2008 - 9:51 AM
The assumption "I'm assuming that your tails are finally anchored back at the chest harness in some fail-proof way." is not a valid one.
Using this technique in hemp makes it difficult to untie, remember the rope has a lot of friction. Normally folks will wrap the ends around the group of support lines and then possibly tuck the ends between the vertical lines, or tie a knot there. The knot simply holds the ends, there is very little loading on the knot, therefore it is easy to untie.
Tom -
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Re: Unsafe Rope
Sat, January 19, 2008 - 11:14 AMThe wrap & tuck technique was one of the ones I was alluding to in my first paragraph. That's one of the reasons I said "anchored" rather than "tied" - I didn't want to be specific, I just assumed it wouldn't fail. Of course using a knot that can't be easily untied _under load_ as the first knot in tying off a vertical line is a really bad idea with any rope.
Going back the to the original scenario using the wrap & tuck method, it's interesting to consider what happens if the wraps continue upwards, over and past the weak bight and on to the pair of bights that is interlocked with it. You now have friction that is useful should the weak bight fail, since the wraps are clamping the 4 lines forming this bight pair, which want to move up, to the first pair of vertical lines and the final pair of vertical lines, both of which want to move down.
How much friction do you get? Well the high school physics model of friction says that the frictional force between two objects is equal to the force pushing them together multiplied by their coefficient of friction. Note that it's independent of contact area. However each wrap adds force and so the amount of friction you are going to get is proportional to the number of wraps and how tight they are.
I have seen riggers with long tails to use up, wrap their line bundle almost all the way back to their ring, and I think this is pretty safe, at least when the wraps are tight and the rope has a high coefficient of friction. It's important to realize when you use this technique, that your redundancy due to friction comes from the wraps _above_ the weak bight.
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Re: Unsafe Rope
Mon, January 7, 2008 - 11:58 PMWe nauticle types are well aware of the loss of strength with nots or with sharp bends as Stephen pointed out. The bowline retains about 80% of the line, sorry, rope strength. A square knot about 50% and as Stephen pointed out a hard bend around a hard object a small diameter reduces the strength to about 20%. That is one of the reasons we use thimbles to increase that diameter and maintain asmuch strength as possible. Of course the second reason for thimbles in a nauticle environment is to reduce chafe. Of course thinbles are not practicle or traditional in rope bondage.
I very much understand the different functions of different ropes in a bondage tie. My point is that if there is a failure of a primary rope than a secondary rope will assume an unattended primary role. I agree with Madam Butterfly that by insuring redundancy of the primary lift points there is a far less chance that the secondary ropes will ever be asked to assume the primary role.
I know i keep harping on failure and that it is not common place in the scene. it is more common on boats and I have witnessed a 35 foot fall from a failed bosun's chair rig because of a castrophic failure triggered by the failure of a miner componant that shockloaded the remaining rig. I've also personally, in my youth, dropped a 26 foot boat 10 feet from the same type of catistrophic failure but we don't need to relive that day.
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Re: Unsafe Rope
Sat, January 12, 2008 - 8:18 PMBill, I believe that I was present the night you are talking about. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.
I witnessed; a two-person bondage rig, (est. 350-400lbs) then "suspended by a single rope in full suspension" in the local scene. (multiple points of single-rope suspension failure) The individual harnesses for the pair were solid, but the unit as a whole was "supported by only a single point light line with no redundancy and then the subject hoisted 15 feet into the air on a slow chain hoist well out of reach of any help if one of these single points failed."
In addition, by the time a DM was alerted to the condition (by several experienced players talking amongst themselves) it was already too late to take any action, and the bottoms were already hoisted.
The interesting part of this discussion, was a dynamic where most people were unwilling to interrupt a verteran player's scene to tell them that what they were doing was unsafe, or get a DM involved sooner. Not cool, and a bad situation all around. I think most were just expecting the rig to be rienforced before hoisting, and caught off-guard in astonishment that it wasn't.
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Re: Unsafe Rope
Sun, January 13, 2008 - 1:51 AMI'm not happy with my rig this evening. I was using a spreader bar that I had the welds xrayed on. I did a partial suspension and was transfering the load to theother leg by doing a full suspension in the middle. Yah, I know full suspension off of a spreader bar is not good even one where the welds have been xrayed. However if I created redundancy by using a rope backup from the main lift ring in the middle to the screw lock carribena than I would have had protection from failure of anything effecting the main lift point on the spreader bar rig. As it was even with the partial suspension I suppored much of her weight on my shoulder during the entire scene and i wondered why I was tired. Otherwise my redundancy on the main harness rope hoist was a minimum of two to one. I think for the lighter rope I'd like to take that to a minimum of three to one for myself.
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Re: Unsafe Rope
Sun, January 13, 2008 - 2:01 AMBusdriver - that's kind of my point. I know how easy it is for me to get sloppy when I do something repeatedly without a problem and my standards start to get a little more lax each time. that is how i get into trouble in life in general.
If we all can be mature enough and can remove our egoes enough to hear the constructive observation of our piers then I believe that we as a community will be the better for it.
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Re: Unsafe Rope
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 10:37 AMIt all comes down to understanding the simple physics. A good margin for safety in suspension bondage is about 10-fold (in climbing ropes it's about 20-fold because of the possibility of higher shock loads). If you have a 100kg/200lb person you need a rig where the weakest point has a breaking strain of 1000kg/2000lbs. If you have weak rope, you need more of it if you have strong rope you need less of it. A 1/4 inch buff polyester rope has a breaking strain of about 500kg, therefore I need a minimum of two lines to hold a 100kg load. If you are using 1/4 inch hemp it has a breaking strain of 500lbs when new, therefore I need 4 strands to hold the same load. If it is treated, I assume it loses 50% of it's strength, you would need 8 strands.
This brings up a point of technique, I never use hemp in the vertical suspension lines. My hemp is for bondage and for the harnesses used for suspension. I always use buff polyester for the vertical lift lines to give me greater strength and my rule of thumb is a ten-fold safety margin (rarely less for very quiet bottoms and up to 20 fold for bound daemons :)
BTW 15 ft suspensions seem to me to be a waste of time. I suspend my bottoms so that I can access them and if they are blindfolded it doesn't matter if they are 2ft or 20 ft above the ground, the sensation is the same. The only reason to lift someone that far above the ground is ego or the need to induce fear of falling in your subjects. This is trying to create spectacle, not a bdsm scene. -
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Re: Unsafe Rope
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 11:31 AMSpeaking as a Rope Performer, it seems that you find Spectacle an inValid reason for suspension. Rope bondage is not just about sex. -
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Re: Unsafe Rope
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 11:34 AMand how is "inducing a fear of falling" not BDSM? isn't it pushing one's psychological and physical limits? Isn't it a power exchange? Do we not have to utterly trust our tops with our safety and well-being? -
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Re: Unsafe Rope
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 5:26 PMInducing a fear of falling <is> BDSM. You can do it two ways - take them up to fifteen ft with eyes wide open so they can see how far they will fall (and btw make sure they know how thin is that spectra line holding them up) or you can blindfold them and take them up five ft and convince them they are thirty ft up. If the induction of fear is the point, you can do it in so many ways. Putting them out of your reach is not necessary (and for me, not much fun) But your mileage may vary
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Re: Unsafe Rope
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 5:14 PMNot an invalid reason for suspension, just different from the reasons <I> use for suspension. For me BDSM <is> about sex, it is a defining aspect of my sexuality, hence for me a BDSM scene requires sex ( I mean sex in a broad sense, not simply intercourse --- I am not Bill Clinton). Rope bondage for me is an expression of that sexuality. My main reason for suspension is to exercise that part of my sexuality with a partner. For me, bondage without that sexual tension is a hobby.
I have also performed rope suspension in public for public consumption and have conducted myself in two ways on those occasions - as if i was alone with the sub with no audience to satisfy (this was in Australia where sex as part of a performance was allowed) and on other occasions as a performance first and formost with the bdsm aspects as overlays.
If performance comes first, then imitation/acting is allowed and special effects become fair game. Technically, lifting someone into the air about 15 ft is pretty easy. Theatre and circus performers do it all the time with much more spectacle. The drama comes from perceived danger. This is usually imitated, it's an illusion. If performance is your goal, then lifting someone 15 ft is not much of a spectacle unless you simulate danger (e.g. use 5mm spectra. It's stronger than steel but looks too thin to hold someone). Personally I think the drama in bondage performances comes from the drama going on between the two individuals or the belief in the audience that they are peeping toms witnessing an intense emotional moment between the two participants. This is hard to make happen when the two people are fifteen ft apart (there is a reason actors move closer together on stage for emotional moments). In short, <my> reasons for suspension don't generally include a good reason to move someone fifteen feet in the air away from me and the technical requirements for lifting someone fifteen feet in the air fall short of spectacle unless there is a simulated element of percieved danger -
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Re: Unsafe Rope
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 5:39 PMAs long as we are clear that your opinion only involves You and Your motives, yeah, fine with me. Mine are for entirely different ones than yours, and I like to think that my inclinations are as valid as anybody else's, and I felt that your first post was regarding All suspension bondage for Anyone's reasons or motivations.Thank you for clarifying.
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Re: Unsafe Rope
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 12:23 PMI disagree that all treated 6mm hemp (~1/4") has a breaking strength of 250 lbs. My own tests on my rope have shown me that it's at least twice that. However, different manufactures vary, and even individual batches from the same factory will vary from batch to batch. -
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Re: Unsafe Rope
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 1:32 PMIn the marine industry you have safe working loads and then breaking strength. According to a friend of mine who has been in the marine chandlery business for over 30 years safe working loads are what the engineers and attorneys for the manufacture can agree on as being defensible and often are 6/1 error on the side of safety.
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Re: Unsafe Rope
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 5:21 PMI never said that <all> treated 6mm hemp has a breaking strength of 250lbs. I said that I <assume> that treated hemp loses 50% of it's strength. Since I don't know how you treat the hemp or what happens to it when it's trerated by someone else, I tend to use a conservative estimate. Engineering rigs is not a matter of averages, but of minimums. If you have eleven treated ropes and 9 of them break at 400lbs and one breaks at 250lbs which value are you going to use as your estimate when you pick up the eleventh rope to suspend someone. I'm going to use 250lbs to be on the safe side. My point wasn't the actual value of the breaking strength but that a reduction in the estimated breaking strength of about 50% is probably safe to use for treated rope. -
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Re: Unsafe Rope
Mon, April 28, 2008 - 4:43 AMI can report from experience. A while back I was using a suspension point rigged by a friend using 6mm Japanese jute (I believe) and had a rope break. It was the usual Japanese style rig, i.e. a rope run from a karabiner to the mounting point, doubled back and forth a few times, then secured with a hitch and the loose end twisted around the 'stem'. Fortunately, due to the friction of the rope, I was alerted by my model suddenly dropping by an inch or so. I doubt we would have had that warning if we had been using slippery synthetic rope.I ran an eye over my suspension ropes and all was secure but then spotted a strand hanging down from the main rig. Consequently, I immediately snapped the quick release whilst supporting my model and got her back down safely. On closer inspection, I found one strand had broken quite cleanly. I do not know the condition of the rope before the suspension. Moral of the story? ALWAYS check the rig if you didn't put it up yourself. -
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Re: Unsafe Rope
Mon, April 28, 2008 - 9:05 PMPerhaps the strand that broke was laid tighter than the other two? In a low stretch rope it might not stretch enough to allow the other two strands to share the load before it broke. It seems more likely that it was the other two strands that saved the day, rather than friction, since you say your model dropped an inch.
Assuming you had checked the rig before using it, would you notice if the rope was "out of lay" rather than actually broken? How about if you took it down and ran the rope through your hands?
It's certainly something to think about when you use thin, low stretch, 3-strand, natural fiber ropes for suspension.
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